Time to Take a Stand – Andre van Heerden
For those of you who follow my blog, you know that from time to time, rather than post my own thoughts, I share the thoughts of some of the other Execs at Cloud Ten Pictures. I believe that it is important that you get to know us all – that you get to know our hearts and our vision.
Today’s post will likely offend some. I want you to know that I’m ok with that. Folks around the globe are polarized on the issue discussed today. Even folks within the Christian church are sometimes at odds on this issue.
Make no mistake about it, Cloud Ten Pictures CEO Andre van Heerden takes a very specific and strong stance. So without further ado, here are some thoughts from the boss:
For me, I believe that marriage is between a man and a woman.
Hard to believe, but THAT’s a statement that can earn you the media’s scorn and give others the right to say absolutely horrible things about you. And anyone who defends you or your statement is branded a hate-monger or back-water rube.
Recently President Obama gave an 18 minute speech supporting gay and lesbians and promised to support their causes. He went on to characterize those who opposed homosexual political issues as holding fast to “worn arguments and old attitudes.”
Wow.
Does ANYONE remember that the United States was FOUNDED on Christian principles? Is there any argument that the United States became the most affluent, free and powerful nation on earth while adhering to those very principles?
The very people who are now screaming the loudest about their rights are the same people who are trampling all over everyone else’s. Having an opinion about what is sin doesn’t make you a hate-monger or old-fashioned or foolish. It means you have a belief system (like EVERYONE else).
And isn’t it strange that all the unchecked rhetoric and vitriol is only aimed at Christianity? Last I checked the Muslim faith has FAR harsher things to say about what is right and wrong and the suitable punishments for such acts.
When God united Adam and Eve, He instituted a union between man and woman. According to the Scripture (Leviticus 20:13), homosexuality is detestable to God.
I’m interested to hear your thoughts on this controversial and important topic…
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I am supportive of your thoughts one hundred percent. Obama has gone even further to push this hate crime bill which will punish us as Christians when we speak out about homosexuality. It's so crazy that they think that Christians hyper focus on homosexuality but the reality of it is that it is sin. And this sin doesn't outweigh…fornication, nor adultury (sp.) or any listed in the Bible. We as Christians have an obligation to tell one what the Bible considers sin and give a person the oportunity to redeem themselves through the forgiveness and grace of God. Just as long as we remember to do it in love. We really are our brothers keeper and we need to stand up for right.
btw I commented as anonymous b/c I didn't know what to put…LOL
Yes it is true. that the union God gave us is being torn apart bye those who choose to live there lives in open sin. It's now time for christians to stand firm on the beliefs that built your country and mine ( Canada)
Even the christian church needs to take a more pro-active stand and speak up and out.
Not sure if this is the place to post, oh well.
"Does ANYONE remember that the United States was FOUNDED on Christian principles? Is there any argument that the United States became the most affluent, free and powerful nation on earth while adhering to those very principles?"
What evidence is there to support that idea? I think maybe people often confuse the pilgrim immigrants with the founding fathers, many of which were self-proclaimed pantheists if not outright atheists. The most popular being Thomas Jefferson, John Adams, and Benjamin Franklin.
Looking at the Constitution we find this right in the First Amendment, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."
It's possible to see that as a little vague, as I'm sure a lot of people do but then in 1797 the Senate stated in a treaty with Tripoli, "As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."
You also have to understand that Marriage is not solely a Christian institution. Of course many other religions may or may not support the idea that marriage is between a man and a woman, but from a historical viewpoint Christian's are the ones who said it also only for people of the same race, or that a man can have many women if he wants. If you want to look to the Bible for reasons supporting solely heterosexual marriage then I don't see how you can deny the legitimacy of polygamous marriages as well.
Amen, Andre and Eric. God, through the Word of God, defined marriage as between a man and a woman. Jesus reiterated it. The opposition to traditional marriage is loud, but poll after poll shows it is certainly not the majority. Apathy is our greatest enemy. As Andre said, we have to take a stand.
A few good comments above… and not only from those who supported my position. : > Yes, while the 1st Amendment and the treaty do support separation of state and church I think you'd be very hard pressed to argue that the legal system and early North American society were not based upon Christian ideals. The bigger holidays are based on Christian celebrations. Schools used to begin the day with the Lord's prayer. The first building in many early communities was the church. Many of the leaders were Christians. To argue otherwise, I think, is missing the big picture.
And to suggest that the Bible supports polygamy or is against interracial marriage is misleading and totally not founded on fact. Have misguided individuals said hateful and erroneous things while claiming to be following the word of God? Absolutely. Does that make them the representatives for the entire faith or make what they're saying right? No.
And, please note that my initial comments were not really about same sex marriage. They were about the right to believe in traditional marriage and not be criticized, demonized and ridiculed because of such a belief. For years special interest groups have fought for the right to have their voices heard – and now that they have that voice they want to silence everyone else. Plus it's one thing to offer a different opinion, it's quite another to attack the intelligence or character of a person who may disagree with you.
André
I find it strange that this is the blog topic. I am working on a stage production this weekend that addresses this very issue in the churches. We have already gained negative publicity from the gay community, phone calls, and hate mail. We have simply taken the same stance and the attacks began. WE never, however attacked a homosexual in this production, but we did magnify the "act" of homosexuality as the sinful abomination that it is. Still we spoke the truth in love as instructed in the book of Ephesians and made headlines in one of the local Gay Publications in our city.
I appreciate your views and am thankful that we are not alone. God Bless!
This is such a touchy topic for all the obvious reasons. And it touches on the politics of the nation and history and it's current leadership. I will say, I wasn't always a Christian and have and had gay friends for as long as I can remember. However, they know where I stand. I love them because God loves them, but I don't love their lifestyle. As the open adulterer/pedophile/drunkard and so on, it is a sin – a blatant sin and I believe we are called, as believers in Gods precious word to speak to them out of love and out of their lifestyle. I try to stay away from rhetoric about the history of this, so far very blessed Country, but I will say this on Obama, he cannot be a lover of the Lords' word and go so far against His word as to publicly commit time, resources and energy in supporting this lifestyle by any means. It's hard to trust a man like that.
In agreement with one of the posts above, on that the people that are vehemently committed to their cause of promoting awareness and acceptance on this subject matter of same sex marriage, we as Christians/Conservatives of any kind also own the right to speak publicly about our belief which stems from Gods word – the Creator of ALL the world and everything in it. We are living in the end times but as professing believers we should all be standing on Gods word, with LOVE – it's not a gray area.
As far as polygomay is concerned, that's when man took it upon himself to regard several woman as wife, it was NOT ordained by God. Men make and will continue to make mistakes, out of Gods order and ultimately pay the price.
God is the same yesterday, today and always!
I do think clearly Christianity does not support gay marriage and neither do I.
I also think in the Bible we see Paul chastising Christians for singling out this one sin when their sins were as great or greater. (Romans 1-2) Its easy to hit on a minority of people (only 2% live as gays) when our marriages are not biblical in MANY other ways. And, I am talking to us church going people.
Will we ask the government to not only ban same-sex marriage but also divorce? Jesus spoke against divorce! I think that the reason many in the Christian community are angry in protest of gay marriage has more to do with masking their log in the eye about their own sin in their marriages.
As a pastor, I think it is futile and wrong to look politically at our government to solve any of these ills. Our role as a local church is to change culture by example, not with words alone.
I believe the Bible and it's teachings on marriage. I haven't read anywhere in the Bible, where we are supposed to take rights away from sinners. I don't believe I am a bad Christian if I am accepting of someone who is gay or lesbian, as long as I am not condoning the sin of homosexuality. I know I'm in the minority on this in the "Christian world", but I've given this topic much thought, especially during the last election. I do not believe banning gay marriage or electing a right-wing president or instituting Christian values as law will solve the rapid moral decay of the nation founded on Christian principles. Being "the most affluent, free and powerful nation on earth" does not equal holiness, and quite frankly, I believe that is a big part of America's down fall. I think the Bible says something about pride. So, I choose to define my faith on what I'm for, instead of what I'm against. The grace of God will bring much more healing and salvation to our country than any intolerance ever could. Thanks for the discussion.
If you research the founding fathers you will find that they believed in Natural Law, which starts with that there is a divine Creator, that we are His Creation and, because of that, have inalienable rights. Sound familiar?
Almost all of the signers of the Declaration of Independence were Christian.
The establishment clause was there so the govt would not mandate a religion, like the Church of England was mandated by the British govt at the time, not to remove religion from the govt.
Religion was critical to the founding fathers. George Washington stated that our country will not succeed if it is not filled with religious people because of the moral truths that would guide them in holding the society together.
I think it would be better served to prove that the country was NOT founded on Christian principles.
from Gary Durbin – I haven't read anywhere in the Bible, where we are supposed to take rights away from sinners.
That's true. I would agree with the above statement. However, in the case of gay marriage, we are not actually talking about "taking away any rights" nor are we talking about ending the ban on gay marriage. For a ban to end, there has to have been a time when the "banned activity" was legal, then it became banned. Prohibition is a good example. Alcohol was legal, then it was banned, then it became legal again. Gay marriage has never been legal. So we're not talking about "ending a ban". We're talking about changing the existing definition of marriage. In order to take a right away from someone, they had to have had the right in the first place. In the case of gay marriage, that "right" never existed, so what they are looking for isn't really equal rights, but a redifinition of rights.
The problem, IMO, with gay marriage is that it sets a precedent that would be hard to move away from. First, gays and lesbians are allowed to have civil ceremonies…then they will want to be married in the church, and the government could easily step in at that point and say that churches cannot refuse to do this. By the way, this has already started to happen in Canada. Where same sex marriages are recognized, a justice of the peace is no longer permitted to refuse to marry a same sex couple on personal moral grounds. How long will it be before no one can refuse to marry a same sex couple on personal moral grounds?
The problem with our free society is that it isn't free anymore. At least not for everyone. I don't care what anyone says, Evangelical Christianity has become the most discriminated against group in our society.
I humbly admit that I need clarity and this tears at my heart. I love God, trust God, know that he wants to give us "the best", a peace in abiding with Him. I don't question the Bible or His love ,which is the ultimate love that I can ever experience. My conflict is my role in this. I cannot deny someone else's love. I know the beauty of individuals who profess homosexuality. How do I judge anyone else? most likely you will agree, I am not in that position to judge. God's love surpasses my own, so His grieving over us I cannot fathom. Is it like my own coming to know Jesus as my saviour, showing me a way to live that eliminates my own chosen path of self-destruction? I was there. Thanks Eric & Andre. I hope to have the honor of a sit down heart to heart on a whole number of world issues one day. Until then, I had to refrain from being a coward in my own eyes, whatever the outcome. ~Sandra
There are two things here. One is sexual orientation and the other is redefining marriage.
I have a lot of gay friends, so I don't take this subject lightly at all. It is a tough dilemma, but in the end I have to trust my faith. I have to trust God.
We are all children of God, no matter what sexual orientation one may have. So, we are all called to follow God, obey God and to be holy. To be holy and to obey God are not easy tasks. They require prayer and sacrifice. It requires us to put aside our human reaction, our human impulse and replace them with holy ones. That is why the road to heaven is narrow and the cross, heavy.
As for redefining marriage… the consequences to a society are vast. Every study shows children are better off having a father and a mother. Why would a society embrace a redefinition that contradicts the future welfare of generations of children? Over politics? Over political correctness?
More importantly, the consequences to the church can be even greater. Marriage as instituted by God and reiterated by Jesus not only follows God's intent and design, but is visible in the relationship between Jesus (the bridegroom) and the Church (the bride). It is why St. Paul speaks of the bride being obedient to the groom (as the Church should be obedient to Jesus) and the groom should love the bride beyond compare (Jesus gave his life for his Church).
If you redefine marriage as instituted by God then you are blurring the sacred lines on the marriage between Jesus and the Church.
While I too am against gay marriage I think our approach to discussing it should be more acedemic. All too often christians take the easy way out and say they are for or against somehting because "the bible says so" while it makes perfect sense to us, non christians have no point of reference. If we are to succeed in "winning" the culture war we have to "play by their rules". feel free to read my blog on gay marriage.
http://blogs.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&friendId=183887857&blogId=456334388
Didn't Jacob father 12 sons who became the heads of the tribe of Israel? The mothers were Rachel, Leah, and both of their handmaidens? I have never seen a passage in the Bible where God specifically condemns polygamy. I mentioned Christians earlier stance against inter-racial marriage to point out that the Bible has been used in the past to defend slavery or at the very least, racism. It's way too easy to use examples from the Bible to support hate-fueled agendas. Even if your motivations are good, comparing homosexuality to pedophilia is an ignorant and hurtful thing to say. Jesus was not a politician. It wasn't his intention to ordain Christianity as the state religion and to punish nonbelievers for their sinful activity. Instead he decided to live with and preach to those who needed him.
Amen!
About a month ago, I got involved in a poll on facebook about the issue of Abortion, and took a pro-life stand. Mob scene! This one guy took great pains to inform me that unborn children are NOT human beings. According to him, 'the fetus' is not human until it's born. (won't repeat his actual wording). He went on to inform me that he was gay.
After exhausting my attempt to be scientific about the whole deal (if the child is conceived by a human man and female….) I took a more social stance. It's odd that the gay community (including Rosie O'Donnell) when they also want the right to adopt. I'm just wondering…how many gay couples want to adopt ABORTED babies????
Oh yes….and this same gentleman continued to tell me that there were 'gay Christians' who would have issues with my views. This lead to my fruitless attempt to explain that the phrase 'gay christian' was an oxymoron, based on Romans 1, among other places in scripture. Then I pretty much gave up, by saying that if the obvious fact of biology (sperm+ egg= baby) wasn't enough to convince them, then it would take God, Himself to convince him.
Long story short, it IS getting more difficult for us to get heard, but we have to. Speaking the TRUTH in LOVE, but speaking it, boldly, nonetheless.
Keep up the great work!!!!
joanna
P.S. Have a great weekend.
On an Unrelated note, will there be a 4th installment of the Left Behind series?